A page for your Grimoire: Science &/VS Magic

This is part of an ongoing argument

That I am part of

The proposition is simple

Magical Grilled Cheese Sandwiches

that what is magic and what is science

Picture if you will a feeling of hunger. You are thinking… You know a grilled cheese sandwich.. It lead to the idea of a magical grilled cheese sandwich

So what is used to create a sandwich





turn stove on

butter bread

(knife- but I recommend a spoon’s back side)

Electric or Gas?

I then took the time to ask have they considered the energy and thought that has gone into this

Bread growing and breeding(domestication)

Cow part domestication for the butter and cheese

The utensil’s

the electric or the gas-

  • how do you get it
  • each own long history

Metallurgy involved

the mining

the base components of the stove

control mechanisms

All of this thousands of years of energy focused

It is a manifestation of human of human will

magical grilled Cheese

A synthesis of different efforts made manifest

This is where I add in Alchemy to chemistry and astrology to astronomy

each growing out- natural selection taking place but yes

No it is magic- human will made manifest

Now I had an interesting conversation with a friend

Who hates the idea

despises it

because- to be honest.. I did not finish responses

Because their is a lot more and it was getting close to hurting feeling

what is science


Science is a systematic endeavor that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testableexplanations and predictions about the universe.[1][2]

The earliest written records of identifiable predecessors to modern science come from Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia from around 3000 to 1200 BCE. Their contributions to mathematicsastronomy, and medicine entered and shaped the Greek natural philosophy of classical antiquity, whereby formal attempts were made to provide explanations of events in the physical world based on natural causes.[3]: 12 [4] After the fall of the Western Roman Empire, knowledge of Greek conceptions of the world deteriorated in Western Europe during the early centuries (400 to 1000 CE) of the Middle Ages, but was preserved in the Muslim world during the Islamic Golden Age[5] and later by the efforts of Byzantine Greek scholars who brought Greek manuscripts from the dying Byzantine Empire to Western Europe in the Renaissance.

The recovery and assimilation of Greek works and Islamic inquiries into Western Europe from the 10th to 13th century revived “natural philosophy“,[6][7] which was later transformed by the Scientific Revolution that began in the 16th century[8] as new ideas and discoveries departed from previous Greek conceptions and traditions.[9][10] The scientific method soon played a greater role in knowledge creation and it was not until the 19th century that many of the institutional and professional features of science began to take shape,[11][12] along with the changing of “natural philosophy” to “natural science”.[13]

Modern science is typically divided into three major branches:[14] natural sciences (e.g., biologychemistry, and physics), which study the physical world; the social sciences (e.g., economicspsychology, and sociology), which study individuals and societies;[15][16] and the formal sciences (e.g., logicmathematics, and theoretical computer science), which study formal systems, governed by axioms and rules.[17][18] There is disagreement whether the formal sciences are science disciplines,[19][20][21] because they do not rely on empirical evidence.[22][20] Applied sciences are disciplines that use scientific knowledge for practical purposes, such as in engineering and medicine.[23][24][25]

New knowledge in science is advanced by research from scientists who are motivated by curiosity about the world and a desire to solve problems.[26][27] Contemporary scientific research is highly collaborative and is usually done by teams in academic and research institutions,[28] government agencies, and companies.[29][30] The practical impact of their work has led to the emergence of science policies that seek to influence the scientific enterprise by prioritizing the ethical and moral development of commercial productsarmamentshealth carepublic infrastructure, and environmental protection.


I however have a much more specific way of looking at it

A different road


The scientific method is an empirical method for acquiring knowledge that has characterized the development of science since at least the 17th century (with notable practitioners in previous centuries; see the article history of scientific method for additional detail.) It involves careful observation, applying rigorous skepticism about what is observed, given that cognitive assumptions can distort how one interprets the observation. It involves formulating hypotheses, via induction, based on such observations; the testability of hypotheses, experimental and the measurement-based statistical testing of deductions drawn from the hypotheses; and refinement (or elimination) of the hypotheses based on the experimental findings. These are principles of the scientific method, as distinguished from a definitive series of steps applicable to all scientific enterprises.[1][2][3]

Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, the underlying process is frequently the same from one field to another. The process in the scientific method involves making conjectures (hypothetical explanations), deriving predictions from the hypotheses as logical consequences, and then carrying out experiments or empirical observations based on those predictions.[a][4] A hypothesis is a conjecture, based on knowledge obtained while seeking answers to the question. The hypothesis might be very specific, or it might be broad. Scientists then test hypotheses by conducting experiments or studies. A scientific hypothesis must be falsifiable, implying that it is possible to identify a possible outcome of an experiment or observation that conflicts with predictions deduced from the hypothesis; otherwise, the hypothesis cannot be meaningfully tested.[5]

The purpose of an experiment is to determine whether observations[A][a][b] agree with or conflict with the expectations deduced from a hypothesis.[6]: Book I, [6.54] pp.372, 408 [b] Experiments can take place anywhere from a garage to a remote mountaintop to CERN’s Large Hadron Collider. There are difficulties in a formulaic statement of method, however. Though the scientific method is often presented as a fixed sequence of steps, it represents rather a set of general principles.[7] Not all steps take place in every scientific inquiry (nor to the same degree), and they are not always in the same order.[8][9]


This is science

this process is science

It has come up recently but the standard is simple

all the experiments have to be replicable

most of the use of science made me wince

it is arguments over conclusions of observations and can be deadly

the data from conclusions is not science

its data interpretation via biases and expectations

you add a tag to it and poof that is what it is

it then biases the next experiments ectra


what is magic

this is one part

  1. to know
  2. to will
  3. to dare
  4. to be/keep silent

this is important

casting is much different

I asked what magic was

Like with science a lot of people arguing here over casting styles

hermetic, gardenarian, dianic, Sumerian, angelic

IMHO this is seperate more tool use

runic, sigil, chanting, prayer, psychic,


Magic, sometimes spelled magick,[1] is an ancient practice rooted in rituals, spiritual divinations, and/or cultural lineage—with an intention to invoke, manipulate, or otherwise manifest supernatural forces, beings, or entities in the natural world.[2] It is a categorical yet often ambiguous term which has been used to refer to a wide variety of beliefs and practices, frequently considered separate from both religion and science.[3]

Although connotations have varied from positive to negative at times throughout history,[4] magic continues to have an important religious and medicinal role in many cultures today.[5]

Within Western culture, magic has been linked to ideas of the Other,[6] foreignness,[7] and primitivism;[8] indicating that it is “a powerful marker of cultural difference”[9] and likewise, a non-modern phenomenon.[10] During the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, Western intellectuals perceived the practice of magic to be a sign of a primitive mentality and also commonly attributed it to marginalised groups of people.[9]

In modern occultism and neopagan religions, many self-described magicians and witches regularly practice ritual magic;[11] defining magic as a technique for bringing about change in the physical world through the force of one’s will. This definition was popularised by Aleister Crowley (1875–1947), an influential British occultist, and since that time other religions (e.g. Wicca and LaVeyan Satanism) and magical systems (e.g. chaos magick) have adopted it.



Ceremonial magic (ritual magichigh magic or learned magic)[1] encompasses a wide variety of rituals of magic. The works included are characterized by ceremony and numerous requisite accessories to aid the practitioner. It can be seen as an extension of ritual magic, and in most cases synonymous with it. Popularized by the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, it draws on such schools of philosophical and occult thought as Hermetic QabalahEnochian magicThelema, and the magic of various grimoires. Ceremonial magic is part of Hermeticism and Western esotericism.

The synonym magick is a archaic spelling of ‘magic’[2] used during the Renaissance, which was revived by Aleister Crowley to show and differentiate the occult magic from stage magic. He defined it as “the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will”, including “mundane” acts of will as well as ritual magic. Crowley wrote that “it is theoretically possible to cause in any object any change of which that object is capable by nature”.[a] John Symonds and Kenneth Grant attach a deeper occult significance to this preference.[b]

Crowley saw magic as the essential method for a person to reach true understanding of the self and to act according to one’s true will, which he saw as the reconciliation “between freewill and destiny.”[3] Crowley describes this process in his Magick, Book 4.[c]



Magical thinking, or superstitious thinking,[1] is the belief that unrelated events are causally connected despite the absence of any plausible causal link between them, particularly as a result of supernatural effects.[1][2][3] Examples include the idea that personal thoughts can influence the external world without acting on them, or that objects must be causally connected if they resemble each other or have come into contact with each other in the past.[1][2][4] Magical thinking is a type of fallacious thinking and is a common source of invalid causal inferences.[3][5] Unlike the confusion of correlation with causation, magical thinking does not require the events to be correlated.[3]

The precise definition of magical thinking may vary subtly when used by different theorists or among different fields of study. In anthropology, the posited causality is between religious ritualprayersacrifice, or the observance of a taboo, and an expected benefit or recompense.

In psychology, magical thinking is the belief that one’s thoughts by themselves can bring about effects in the world or that thinking something corresponds with doing it.[6] These beliefs can cause a person to experience an irrational fear of performing certain acts or having certain thoughts because of an assumed correlation between doing so and threatening calamities.[1]

In psychiatry, magical thinking defines false beliefs about the capability of thoughts, actions or words to cause or prevent undesirable events.[7] It is a commonly observed symptom in thought disorderschizotypal personality disorder and obsessive-compulsive disorder.[8][9][10]


What will upset some people

There are common factors between magic and Science

The user

interpretation of inputs


where they operate

No I can feel the anger and thoughts running

good someone is thinking

so Instead of arguing over data interpretation

lets be simple

tool user is the key to me


The key to identifying tool use is defining what constitutes a tool. Researchers of animal behaviour have arrived at different formulations.

In 1981, Beck published a widely used definition of tool use.[1] This has been modified to:

The external employment of an unattached or manipulable attached environmental object to alter more efficiently the form, position, or condition of another object, another organism, or the user itself, when the user holds and directly manipulates the tool during or prior to use and is responsible for the proper and effective orientation of the tool.[2]

Other, briefer definitions have been proposed:

An object carried or maintained for future use.

— Finn, Tregenza, and Norman, 2009.[3]

The use of physical objects other than the animal’s own body or appendages as a means to extend the physical influence realized by the animal.

— Jones and Kamil, 1973[4]

An object that has been modified to fit a purpose … [or] An inanimate object that one uses or modifies in some way to cause a change in the environment, thereby facilitating one’s achievement of a target goal.

— Hauser, 2000[5]

Others, for example Lawick-Goodall,[6] distinguish between “tool use” and “object use”.

Different terms have been given to the tool according to whether the tool is altered by the animal. If the “tool” is not held or manipulated by the animal in any way, such as an immobile anvil, objects in a bowerbird‘s bower, or a bird using bread as bait to catch fish,[7] it is sometimes referred to as a “proto-tool”.[8]

When an animal uses a tool that acts on another tool, this has been termed use of a “meta-tool”. For example, New Caledonian crows will spontaneously use a short tool to obtain an otherwise inaccessible longer tool that then allows them to extract food from a hole.[8] Similarly, bearded capuchin monkeys will use smaller stones to loosen bigger quartz pebbles embedded in conglomerate rock, which they subsequently use as tools.[9]

Rarely, animals may use one tool followed by another, for example, bearded capuchins use stones and sticks, or two stones.[9] This is called “associative”, “secondary” or “sequential” tool use.[10]

Some animals use other individuals in a way which could be interpreted as tool use, for example, ants crossing water over a bridge of other ants, or weaver ants using conspecifics to glue leaves together. These have been termed “social tools”.[11]


One important part (which is the result of my experiences)


worldview or a world-view or Weltanschauung is the fundamental cognitive orientation of an individual or society encompassing the whole of the individual’s or society’s knowledgeculture, and point of view.[1] A worldview can include natural philosophy; fundamental, existential, and normative postulates; or themes, values, emotions, and ethics.[2]


now for the last bit

Science and magic

Magic and science

Casting of spells and the experimentation

observing the effects of will made manifest

I could go over


Chaos theory

and lot of other thiings

but this is the lazy scholar

I left out a few things because this is magic vs& science (lol)


I asked the Chat GPT3 bot its thoughts

what is magic

The term “magic” can have different meanings depending on the context in which it is used. In general, magic is often associated with practices and beliefs that involve the use of supernatural or mystical powers to achieve specific outcomes or effects that cannot be explained by natural means.

Magic can refer to various forms of occult practices, such as witchcraft, divination, spell-casting, and alchemy, which are based on the belief in unseen forces and energies that can be manipulated for various purposes. In some cultures, magic is associated with spiritual or religious beliefs and is used for healing, protection, or communication with supernatural beings.

However, the concept of magic can also be used metaphorically to refer to anything that is perceived as extraordinary or inexplicable, such as a particularly talented athlete’s performance or the mesmerizing beauty of a sunset.


what is science

Science is a systematic and evidence-based approach to understanding the natural world and the universe as a whole. It involves the use of empirical methods and scientific principles to observe, measure, and explain phenomena, and to develop theories that can be tested through further observation and experimentation.

Science covers a wide range of fields, including biology, chemistry, physics, astronomy, geology, and many others. The scientific method is the foundation of all scientific research, which involves the following steps:

  1. Observation: Scientists observe phenomena and gather data through various methods, such as experimentation, surveys, and fieldwork.
  2. Hypothesis: Scientists develop a testable explanation for the observed phenomena, known as a hypothesis.
  3. Prediction: Scientists make predictions based on the hypothesis, which can be tested through further experimentation or observation.
  4. Experimentation: Scientists conduct experiments to test the hypothesis and to gather additional data to refine their understanding of the phenomenon.
  5. Analysis: Scientists analyze the data collected from the experiments to determine if the hypothesis is supported or refuted.
  6. Conclusion: Based on the analysis, scientists draw conclusions about the phenomenon and revise or refine their hypothesis as necessary.

Through the scientific method, scientists are able to develop an increasingly accurate and comprehensive understanding of the natural world and the universe, which has led to many advances in technology, medicine, and other fields.


using these data points- what are the common denominators of scince and magic, their utliers, and the points of contention

While science and magic may appear to be very different approaches to understanding the world, there are some commonalities between them, as well as outliers and points of contention. Here are some potential data points to consider:

Common denominators:

  1. Both science and magic seek to understand and manipulate the world around us. They are both concerned with explaining phenomena and making predictions about how the world will behave.
  2. Both science and magic often involve experimentation and observation. While the methods and goals may be different, both approaches rely on gathering data and analyzing it to gain insights into the natural world.
  3. Both science and magic have been practiced across many different cultures and time periods, suggesting that they are fundamental aspects of human curiosity and the desire to understand the world.


  1. The methods used in science and magic are very different. Science relies on empirical data and rigorous experimentation, while magic often relies on subjective experiences and intuition.
  2. The goals of science and magic can also differ. Science is typically concerned with discovering universal laws and principles that apply to all phenomena, while magic may be more focused on achieving specific outcomes or manipulating individual circumstances.
  3. Science is generally accepted as a valid and reliable approach to understanding the world, while magic is often viewed with skepticism or outright dismissal by many people.

Points of contention:

  1. The relationship between science and magic has been a subject of debate for centuries. Some argue that they are fundamentally incompatible, while others see them as complementary approaches to understanding the world.
  2. There is also debate over whether certain practices or beliefs should be considered scientific or magical. For example, some alternative medicine practices may be considered magical by some, while others argue that they are based on sound scientific principles.
  3. The role of subjective experience and intuition in both science and magic is another area of contention. While many scientists strive to eliminate bias and subjectivity from their research, some argue that subjective experience and intuition can play an important role in scientific discovery, while others argue that they are more appropriate to magical practices.

That was AI

I am laughing

In conclusion

I have left out three very simple tools but have left hints above

they bridge the two quiet easily

a lot of other tools have been left out for simplicity

Stay if you want

go if you must

Harm ye none of the way

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